Two websites working perfect under SAFE MODE

[gokcer]

And you don't even have to use iframes. You can get the same look on a page by using the CSS property position: static. A touch of JavaScript even makes it work in IE.
http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/frames/standards_mode (ugly as can be but it works)

Thanks for the example; that is similiar to what I used in reta.com.tr; but i didn't understand why did you give that example, because i use iframes for wrapping (if "very" necessary) like WB do, not to make scroll bars.

From seeing your work, I understand that you have spend a lot of time learning your craft. Your site is beautiful. When you were polishing your design skills, I was in the computer lab watching end users get confused by web pages. So I focus more on interface usability than on beauty. Hopefully, it is possible to do both but my choice will generally be for ease of use first.

Thanks again, I've visited your homesite and some sites in your portfolio, too Your design and programming skills are good, too. I am an advertiser at all. The perception and "media abilities" of my target audience is the most important data for me as I wrote before. And as I wrote before "almost none of my visitors" have technical or confusion problems. The language of the sites may make the sites to seem convoluted for visitors to you.

As to winning awards, those are given by and for designers. A great design doesn't have to necessarily work well to win awards. It only has to be beautiful and hopefully offer something novel.

You are wrong, you can check it: www.altinorumcek.com. But another confusion may occur because of language again It was given in several categories like portals, e-commerce, commercial sites, personal sites, multimedia applications etc... There are many professionals from media, advertising, publishing, information tech., internet tech.  etc ... sectors and managers & CEO's from many sectors like textile, construction, entertainment etc ... and also some academicians from the communication, marketing and computer engineering departments of international universities.

Two, their advertising executives are not web savvy. I have done usability testing for a couple of Fortune 500 companies and can honestly say that they are mostly run by older white men who learned advertising before the web came about. They don't know and don't really care. It goes back to the huge advertising budget issue.

I dont know with which companies you've done your tests, but in my country older white men manages only protocol, while younger genius men managing the companies and strategies. Maybe that's the point where I am, as an multimedia designer Web sites are a little part of our companies. But old men accept to spent more money for their web sites than the "easy portals" to be original, interesting, "maybe confusing" every year. And this makes me love web designing: make art, confuse sheep brains, earn money (It reminds me Renaissance) Sure, sometimes the work is about a portal or an online magazine in advertising agencies, and to work with some "easy navigation expert" programmers" can be prefered to finish this boring work.

One, they have already established brand names and don't have to rely on SEO for traffic. With the millions they spend on advertising, they can pretty much ignore the day-to-day concerns of the small website owner.

They work with great multimedia agencies with great budgets, and most of the multimedia agencies built project teams including designers, multimedia directors, programmers, creatives, strategists etc. They care because they spend great money. But near the entire company the care may seem small to you.

Yes, I can say that Coke, Pepsi and Ferrari are out of date. There are two issues here.

I dont think so ...

[mysticcowboy]

If we talk about a portal, an internet magazine or an e-commerce system you're absolutely right about easy navigating. Also this site is not an advertising portal; this site is an advertising by itself, like the sites of Nike, Cocacola, Ferrari, Pepsi ... etc.   Check out them. Those are billion dolars budgeted companies. And all of them works with the best marketing professionals in the world. Can you say these sites are out of date? If you say you may hear that "The criterions of being a trademark's site or a portal is different. Like the difference between a newspaper and a poster. We make posters and you say:' These are not good newspapers' Portals have more temporary and up to date information that the aim is to give them purely. But our aim is to inject our marks to people's brain. And the best injector for "mark injection" is "idea". Nobody remembers or change his shopping prefences between different marked equal products with pure and easy information."

I want you to check out my another site that had been finalist of "sectoral section golden web award" in Turkey: http://www.ucde.com.tr This company has two websites. The other one is only for information about products. This one is an advertising only. And I have had many custumers that's why this site is in my portfolio. They say that and it's the money.

If your customer wants the site the way it is then, you've done a nice job. It is quite attractive.

Yes, I can say that Coke, Pepsi and Ferrari are out of date. There are two issues here.

One, they have already established brand names and don't have to rely on SEO for traffic. With the millions they spend on advertising, they can pretty much ignore the day-to-day concerns of the small website owner.

Two, their advertising executives are not web savvy. I have done usability testing for a couple of Fortune 500 companies and can honestly say that they are mostly run by older white men who learned advertising before the web came about. They don't know and don't really care. It goes back to the huge advertising budget issue.

As to winning awards, those are given by and for designers. A great design doesn't have to necessarily work well to win awards. It only has to be beautiful and hopefully offer something novel.

From seeing your work, I understand that you have spend a lot of time learning your craft. Your site is beautiful. When you were polishing your design skills, I was in the computer lab watching end users get confused by web pages. So I focus more on interface usability than on beauty. Hopefully, it is possible to do both but my choice will generally be for ease of use first.

And you don't even have to use iframes. You can get the same look on a page by using the CSS property position: static. A touch of JavaScript even makes it work in IE.
http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/frames/standards_mode (ugly as can be but it works)

[gokcer]

I believe that you misunderstand what I'm saying.

Thanks for your comments. The hidding navigation is a concept for that site. It is an "idea", like that "in marketing strategies creative works show something but tell another thing". The people who wrote in the guest book understands and likes that. They mostly write about the concept of menu. Many times I've heard from my company custumers "your site's idea was a factor in choosing to work with you" for both ardaerdik.com and reta.com.tr.

If we talk about a portal, an internet magazine or an e-commerce system you're absolutely right about easy navigating. Also this site is not an advertising portal; this site is an advertising by itself, like the sites of Nike, Cocacola, Ferrari, Pepsi ... etc.   Check out them. Those are billion dolars budgeted companies. And all of them works with the best marketing professionals in the world. Can you say these sites are out of date? If you say you may hear that "The criterions of being a trademark's site or a portal is different. Like the difference between a newspaper and a poster. We make posters and you say:' These are not good newspapers' Portals have more temporary and up to date information that the aim is to give them purely. But our aim is to inject our marks to people's brain. And the best injector for "mark injection" is "idea". Nobody remembers or change his shopping prefences between different marked equal products with pure and easy information."

I want you to check out my another site that had been finalist of "sectoral section golden web award" in Turkey: http://www.ucde.com.tr This company has two websites. The other one is only for information about products. This one is an advertising only. And I have had many custumers that's why this site is in my portfolio. They say that and it's the money.

I agree with you about the framesets in ardaerdik.com. I don't like framesets. I prefer iframe if necessary. But Mr. Arda Erdik especially wanted that. I will show your comments to him on this point. But search engines redirects the page to the mainframeset index, so the problem is not much here. In reta.com.tr I used "div tag" for the scroll bar.

[mysticcowboy]

First of all these are the sites about advertising sector in where art an business works together. Then I "very very" agree with you about that a site must have an easy accessibility, more than design. This isn't the point that i told to be updated. Your reference's criterions on "being an accessible web site" must be updated. Not only me, my counter says that ...  All of my potential customers have flash and java enabled in their systems. % 90 of visitors use winXP sp2 and %8 of them use MacOsX operating systems in which flash plugin included. Target audience is a better reference than some "anti-interactivity supporters". So  if you think that "flash and dhtml menus are handicap on being accessible", this is out of date ...

I believe that you misunderstand what I'm saying. I have no problems with Flash if it's done well. But doing it well goes far beyond making an interesting design and animation. It includes making it both accessible and usable.

The accessibility problems are with the lack of text equivalents for the Flash navigation. That makes it much harder for search engines to index the page because search engines don't read Flash. It's possible to make the Flash accessible and if that's done there is no problem. I saw no text equivalents when I viewed your topframe.htm page. this isn't just about accessibility to peole with handicaps.

The usability problem comes in two forms. The first is with the "mystery meat navigation." Believe what you want, but every usability study ever done says that navigation works best when there are text links to go with icons.

In this case there aren't even icons. A visitor has to guess that your page title is also your navigation section. Then they have to guess what the letters mean. It looks great but is not user friendly.

The other usability problem is with frames. It is perfectly possible for a search engine to link to the individual pages contained within your frameset. Then if someone comes to your site from Google or Yahoo on one of those pages, they actually visit the page without the rest of the frameset. That's why modern designers don't do frames. They are totally out of date in the world of search engine optimization. You can get the same effect with CSS and a couple of lines of JavaScript.

You've done excellent design work. From what you say, you've considered some of the accessibility issues in the Flash animation. If you take the time to finish the site to address the other considerations, then it will not only look good but reach a larger audience and make it easier to use when they do visit.

[gokcer]

If your site is an art project or a personal site that is more about you than the visitor, the go ahead and hide your links behind whatever graphic your want. If you want your site to be for the customer, make it as easy as possible. Is that out of date?

First of all these are the sites about advertising sector in where art an business works together. Then I "very very" agree with you about that a site must have an easy accessibility, more than design. This isn't the point that i told to be updated. Your reference's criterions on "being an accessible web site" must be updated. Not only me, my counter says that ...  All of my potential customers have flash and java enabled in their systems. % 90 of visitors use winXP sp2 and %8 of them use MacOsX operating systems in which flash plugin included. Target audience is a better reference than some "anti-interactivity supporters". So  if you think that "flash and dhtml menus are handicap on being accessible", this is out of date ...

[mysticcowboy]

I think your reference site (web pages that suck) must be updated.
Or you may want to do that for your own design principles. 

I guess it's a matter of whether you want your site to be "Cool" or you want it to work as a business tool. There really isn't anything to update. All the usability research around says the same thing. If your visitors don't instantly understand the page, some of them will leave. That's means knowing exactly where they are in the site without having to hover over a non-standard icon. 

I once believed, like you, that the more graphically interesting a site is the better.  That was before I worked in a university computer lab. I saw person after person come to me for help because they couldn't understand a web page. Then when I worked for a time doing usabiltiy testing for the university, I really found out that simple and obvious is better.

We want to give people the benefit of the doubt and think they can figure things out. Unfortunately it doesn't work in most cases. Any opportunity you give someone to not understand will be taken.

If your site is an art project or a personal site that is more about you than the visitor, the go ahead and hide your links behind whatever graphic your want. If you want your site to be for the customer, make it as easy as possible. Is that out of date?

[gokcer]

My hosting company has an error log for the visitors.
For ardaerdik.com since 01.01.2006,
the total of Active-x / plug-in errors are "6" in 6891 different visitors
(i think some of them about the online radio which isn't a must for browsing).
And for reta.com.tr
"9" in 17852 different visitors.
Not a problem for me
I think your reference site (web pages that suck) must be updated.
Or you may want to do that for your own design principles. 

Wow, your page re-sizes my browser.. As a web user/designer I'll tell you this much, resizing peoples browser is a crappy move.. You may want to change that.

Thanks Fratm you're right I've missed that

[mysticcowboy]

www.ardaerdik.com
Flash menu... Html Frames... every page is built on same template, same css file; but different css style. A personel site of young and famous creative director, in Turkish Language.

www.reta.com.tr
A website for an advertising company, in Turkish Language... Cool horizantal DHTML menu and cool horizantal design.

As with the Flash menu the "cool" DHTML menu has problems. It doesn't work with JavaScript turned off, which accounts for about 10% of web users. It's perfectly possible to create DHTML menus that give first level links even with JavaScript turned off.

Not counting the problems inherent in using frames, your ardaerdik site should have a no-flash menu option for those who don't have the proper Flash plugin.

Your design skills are excellent. But a good website is more than good design. Good websites really need to take usability and accessibility into account, too. Fortunately, the problems you have are fixable with a little work.

[mysticcowboy]

The Flash menu looks really cool but I believe that it falls under the heading of "mystery meat navigation" at Web Pages that Suck.

[Fratm]

www.reta.com.tr
A website for an advertising company, in Turkish Language... Cool horizantal DHTML menu and cool horizantal design.

Wow, your page re-sizes my browser.. As a web user/designer I'll tell you this much, resizing peoples browser is a crappy move.. You may want to change that.

(Using FF 1.5.2)

-Fratm

[gokcer]

I love that DHTML menu. Is that something that you are willing to share?

You can find it and the template's index.php: http://www.reta.com.tr/main/media/dhtml_menu.zip

[marathoner]

gokcer-

I love that DHTML menu. Is that something that you are willing to share?

[gokcer]

But i guess you have to change that for every new version of WB until version 3 where the safemode problem will be fixed.
Do you have a ready to use package of this? Or an how to, on what needs to be changed?

I started my work with 2.4.x. The upgrades since 2.5.2 didnt make a problem for me on upgrading my WB for safemode. But version 2.6.x have several structural changes which take a lot of time to synchronize with my WB. And also i thougt it wasn't necessary to upgrade 2.6.x because i have learned some php and mysql during this process so i made my own upgrades for my special needs. But i couldn't developed a package for all these changes, because most of them found by trying lots of combinations and I cant remember "what I did" All i can say is "dont create directories and files. And redirect your all links to datas on the database which are already created by WB admin panel". You must change the link making functions like:

Code Select Expand

<a href = WB_URL."/posts.php?page_id='.$page_id.'&section_id='.$section_id.'&post_id='.$post_id.'">This is a post link</a>
returns:

Code Select Expand

<a href = "http://www.something.com/posts.php?page_id=3&section_id=5&post_id=2">This is a post link</a>

and

Code Select Expand

<a href = WB_URL."/index.php?page_id='.$page_id.'">This is a page link</a>
returns:

Code Select Expand

<a href = "http://www.something.com/index.php?page_id=3">This is a page link</a>

I use different templates for the news page and for the posts on it. So my post links are calling "posts.php" file which is like:

Code Select Expand

<?php

define("POST_ID", $post_id);
define('TEMPLATE', 'my_post_template');



// Function for page content
$globals[] = 'database';
$globals[] = 'admin';
$globals[] = 'TEXT';
$globals[] = 'MENU';
$globals[] = 'HEADING';
$globals[] = 'MESSAGE';
if(!function_exists('page_content')) {
function page_content($block = 1) {
// Get outside objects
global $globals;
if(isset($globals) AND is_array($globals)) { foreach($globals AS $global_name) { global $$global_name; } }
// Make sure block is numeric
if(!is_numeric($block)) { $block = 1; }
// Include page content
if(!defined('PAGE_CONTENT')) {
// First get all sections for this page
$query_sections = $database->query("SELECT section_id,module FROM ".TABLE_PREFIX."sections WHERE page_id = '".PAGE_ID."' AND block = '$block' ORDER BY position");
if($query_sections->numRows() > 0) {
// Loop through them and include there modules file
$section = $query_sections->fetchRow();
$section_id = $section['section_id'];
$module = $section['module'];
require(WB_PATH.'/modules/'.$module.'/view.php');

}
} else {
if($block == 1) {
require(PAGE_CONTENT);
}
}
}
}

require('index.php');
define('TEMPLATE_DIR', WB_URL.'/templates/my_post_template/');
?>

[PeterM]

I wrote a lot about safe mode problem last year. Stefan guided me with some homeworks on my way    I disabled all "file creating" code parts of WB. Then I made the links to be created with calling "page_id"s an "post_id"s in all files (including search, insert link etc... options). Also the new modules worked perfect like polls, massmail, bookmarks, downloads, faqbaker, calendar etc... with this solution. (a little modification can be needed for some of them). No new files, no ftp uploading, hurrah MySQL database

But i guess you have to change that for every new version of WB until version 3 where the safemode problem will be fixed.
Do you have a ready to use package of this? Or an how to, on what needs to be changed?

I guess it took a lot of work to get it working. Great job.

Peter

[gokcer]

I wrote a lot about safe mode problem last year. Stefan guided me with some homeworks on my way    I disabled all "file creating" code parts of WB. Then I made the links to be created with calling "page_id"s an "post_id"s in all files (including search, insert link etc... options). Also the new modules worked perfect like polls, massmail, bookmarks, downloads, faqbaker, calendar etc... with this solution. (a little modification can be needed for some of them). No new files, no ftp uploading, hurrah MySQL database

[i2Paq]

How did you make them work under Safe Mode or do you never create new pages via the Admin panel?

Nice work btw!

[gokcer]

www.ardaerdik.com
Flash menu... Html Frames... every page is built on same template, same css file; but different css style. A personel site of young and famous creative director, in Turkish Language.

www.reta.com.tr
A website for an advertising company, in Turkish Language... Cool horizantal DHTML menu and cool horizantal design.