An Open Discussion on WebsiteBaker's future

[kweitzel]

Hi Darn, hi all

thanks a lot for your comments on this. You are right, there has not been much in terms of communication going on. We are moving forward with WebsiteBaker and indeed it is a good move of Ryan to call his new project something else, although I am quite interested in the new project as well!

There is a group of dedicated people who are working on bringing WebsiteBaker as a community project forward and things like this contest you refer to will be handled differently in the future (top down instead of bottom up) ... The aim is to have the working structure in place latest by end of the year and then there can be further planning ahead.

@all: I know there are a lot of people around willing to contribute one way or the other. Please do bear a bit with us and we all will be able to move forward with WebsiteBaker! If you are willing to contribute, please do send Ryan or me a message.

cheers

Klaus

[davon]

I'm using WB only for a temporary and very limited project of my own because of the code module and the overall handling of WB which isn't overcrowded with things admins often don't need. I think for a single user or a small group of people who are working on the same target this CMS is fantastic. And the documentation is great too, easy to understand and gives ideas about the possibilities. Anyway, everyone here knows what i mean because thats the reason why we all are here.

But i have to admit that i'm looking into the forum only now and then, because it looks in a couple of cases a bit chaotic to me. Sometimes i'm wondering if all Mods here are working as a structured team FOR the community, or not (example: i didn't understand the appearence of WebsiteBaker Template Contest World Wide 08 without a well placed announcement about it before ("we are thinking about... how's about, anyone interested?").. no, Bang! Here's the contest. But if there should be such an announcement, i couldn't find it because it seems to be well hidden). Well, i don't want dig too deep, but i wanted to mention that the forum is the point i don't like very much from the whole WB project.


Two days ago i visited after a longer break again, looking for news about WB3 (Any news about it? / Whats new in general?) and then i saw the Latest News from Ryan and started to read this thread here. First i though "Darn, not good".. Two days later i'm still unhappy with this "new way" and still think "Darn, not good".

Splitting power finally don't create more power, but people still want to figure this out by their own experience. Walk that way, but as a off time WB user i'm not happy with that.

[Ryan]

Hi all,

I have made a few postings to explain to users following different threads what exactly is going on.
Here is the post (text copied from WebsiteBaker.org/3) I made in the WB3 board:
https://forum.websitebaker.org/index.php/topic,11774.0.html

Now that has been sorted, it should now become easier (hopefully) organising new positions and structures.

Ryan

[Stefek]

That's great News, Ryan.
Really.

I will have additional Questions for you depending on the WebsiteBaker Project.
I will send you a short E-Mail in the next few days.

Best Regards,
Stefek

[Ryan]

Ok guys, based on the positive feedback, I am definitely going ahead with the idea. WB3 will be no more, instead it will be PlatformRAD 1.0 (Open Source Edition). Further information will be available at platformrad.org in the coming days.

[Stefek]

I agree completly with everyone who has spoken in the last few hours.

BerndJM

So, with this decision for a new name for his "going further WB Version" the WB2 fans have the chance to look a little bit more in the future, a perspective which was a little bit shortened with the official announcement of "WB3". And made more or less rumor in the community.

"made more or less rumor in the community" - That's abolutley right.

Ralf (Berlin)

I think it's the best solution to give your new child a new name and a own platform 
It is also my firm conviction that WebsiteBaker will be developed ahead by community and will always keep in tradition.

Yes - that's right.

Matthias

We now have the chance to make a WB 2.8 (based on 2.7 only with a few features and a new layout) and parallel develop a own WB3.
So, as Ralf said, let us make targets and form teams wich can implement these targets.

Absolutley agree Matthias.
As I told - again and again - it is not the entire project which has dificulities / problems.
And now with this certainty Ryan gives to the community we will be able to bring order into this.
So we won't need to change this things which allready worked fine.

Once this point is handled we can make fast progress.

Regards,
Stefek

[ruebenwurzel]

Hello,

the decision to name your new CMS other then WebsiteBaker was the only chance for WebsiteBaker to have a future. And I'm pretty shure it will have a long future. There are a lot of guys here wich are very interested in bringing WB to another level. Keep the basics, with easy to use for the users, but in the backgound with rewritten code. We now have the chance to make a WB 2.8 (based on 2.7 only with a few features and a new layout) and parallel develop a own WB3.

So, as Ralf said, let us make targets and form teams wich can implement these targets.

Matthias

[Ralf Hertsch]

@Ryan

I think it's the best solution to give your new child a new name and a own platform 

It is also my firm conviction that WebsiteBaker will be developed ahead by community and will always keep in tradition.

So let's talk briefly about organisation/teams and then roll up our sleeves and continue the WebsiteBaker story...

Regards
Ralf

[BerndJM]

Mainly (but not only) @centran:

I think it's a good decision from Ryan to give the "WB3-baby" a new name because:

If he name it WB3 there will be a very short room left for WB2.x
There will be published a 2.8 - 2.9 - and with a 2.999999999 the maximum will be reached.

So, with this decision for a new name for his "going further WB Version" the WB2 fans have the chance to look a little bit more in the future, a perspective which was a little bit shortened with the official announcement of "WB3". And made more or less rumor in the community.

So I think if Ryan give his new bae a new name the street for WB2... will be really free to make it's way.

Regards Bernd

[centran]

I think that is a good idea Ryan but only if people are going to continue to develop WB2 for a long time. However, if the idea was to keep WB2 going for a little while longer(2.8) and then move on to WB3 I do not think it is a good idea.

Will the WB2 core be around and actively developed in 2+ years or would have people moved on to WB3? I think people would move on to WB3 since the core is supposed to be better and easier to deal with. In that case then I recommend a tag line for the new product such as "PlatformRAD complete hosting featuring WebsiteBaker".... but people seem to be pretty set on continuing with WB2 so two complete products might be the way to go.

Those people who want to split off really need to be thinking about this and deciding. I am not one of those people. Maybe a new topic with a poll should be started and only those interested in continuing with WB2 should vote and discuss.

[Ryan]

Hi Stefek,

As your response to my idea is the only one, I assume that everyone else agrees with your response and supports my idea. I'll give it another few hours but I'm pretty sure on this decision for PlatformRAD.org

Ryan

[Stefek]

WebsiteBaker 3 could instead be released as PlatformRAD Open Source edition (OSE).
...
WebsiteBaker 2.x would stay at WebsiteBaker.org, and if the community decides to rewrite the core of WB2 they could and then release it as WB3.
...
The current WebsiteBaker project would then be able to progress without restrictions ...

Hello Ryan. This is a great idea, and being for several years in Marketing/Advertisement Business I see that this will be the best solution for your new product.

I don't really see to much disadvantage in doing this other than it could potentially split the community. However, PlatfromRAD open source edition (OSE) would be a completely different product to WebsiteBaker (2.x and future versions) so I don't see this as too much of an issue.

If you will do this, I can assure you, that the community as it now exists will follow up your future progress.
I also think, that we will create more interest - involve new people into this project - for WebsiteBaker and no one is going to "hide the roots". Thus more people will know about your new project via this forum.

@kweitzel:

"Might I remind you that we are talking about the furture of this project and NOT about the personal behaviour of some people? frankly spoken, I don't see much of that."

- Klaus, you are completely right, we need to focus on the main point here.

I think your concept of three teams could work, and it would be interesting to establish a list of who the potential team members could be. Maybe this is the next step?

Because he is sleeping, I want to give you a reply on this.

One of the persons really interested in a Leading Position (as you maybe assumed) is me.
I aim to take responsibility into the Marketing of WebsiteBaker (primarily the Brand of WebsiteBaker and External Public Relation(ships))
This is only one of the Sections where we will need Leaders for.
I hope we can tell more in the next days.



Thank you for helping us in this times, so we can change for the better.
(And this discussion really brought light into the situation.)

I also like to thank Matthias, Christian and all the "old crew" - they brought a great product last February.
I hope the best for the Development Team and I am very curious about the next official WebsiteBaker Release.

We owe you.

Regards,
Stefek

[Ryan]

Ok, here is my latest idea that could potential save a lot of headache's. I did mention this briefly in one of my replies earlier to Stefek. Remember, this is only an idea and it is not definitely going ahead....

PlatformRAD is the name of my product that will be my commercial, fully hosted/"software as a service" (SaaS) solution. The website for this product/service is platformrad.com

WebsiteBaker 3 could instead be released as PlatformRAD Open Source edition (OSE). I would run the community from platformrad.org which would consist of a forum/bug tracker/subversion/wiki, similar to the current WB portal.

WebsiteBaker 2.x would stay at WebsiteBaker.org, and if the community decides to rewrite the core of WB2 they could and then release it as WB3.

The motivation for doing this is that WB3, as it currently stands, is a completely different product to WB2. I intend to run things slightly differently, and therefore it doesn't seem to fit in well with the natural direction the WebsiteBaker project is heading (which is much more open).

The current WebsiteBaker project would then be able to progress without restrictions on what I currently want for WB3/PlatformRAD.

I don't really see to much disadvantage in doing this other than it could potentially split the community. However, PlatfromRAD open source edition (OSE) would be a completely different product to WebsiteBaker (2.x and future versions) so I don't see this as too much of an issue.

Please let me know what you think of this idea.

[Ryan]

Just in response to the most recent replies:

-----

@ Vincent & Luckyluke:

I agree. We have been busy pointing fingers rather than focusing on the task at hand.

------

@Stefek:

"It was good if you change the name. For both - WebsiteBaker and your new Product."

- I will talk about this in my next post..

------

@johnp:

"Further more I would like to add to this I have done everything I could to get Ryan and I
to come to some kind of middle ground and it is hard to do when one fines getting in
touch with him is almost impossible"

- What troubles are you having in contacting me? Yes my PM is disabled in the forum, but my signature contains a very clear way to contact me which (now) works If you are having troubles contacting me please let me know because I'd like to fix this.

------

@kweitzel:

"Might I remind you that we are talking about the furture of this project and NOT about the personal behaviour of some people? frankly spoken, I don't see much of that."

- Klaus, you are completely right, we need to focus on the main point here.

I think you concept of three teams could work, and it would be interesting to establish a list of who the potential team members could be. Maybe this is the next step?

[sharmpro]

I owe an apologize to the one who felt offended by my last post.
Just take the 'offensive' tone away and read carefully.

Regards,

Stefano aka sharmpro

[kweitzel]

@everybody:

Might I remind you that we are talking about the furture of this project and NOT about the personal behaviour of some people? frankly spoken, I don't see much of that.

Let me state some facts here that I was invited to share in a closed forum environment, which I will not do:

Code Select Expand

1) The Servers and different webspaces are located with people who are dedicated to
Website baker and not any faction or fork candidate

2) From what I gather this part of the infrastructure will stay dedicated to WebsiteBaker

And now my thoughts about the future:

As you have all seen my proposed Organization for the WebsiteBaker Community I will elaborate a bit more on that:

The should be leaders team which consists of 3 people. My proposed areas are "Community", "Development" and "Infrastructure / Operation"

- Community

The Community Team needs to cover all the work which has to do with community work (e.g. Forum, User meetings). Additionally that Team should cover Marketing and Press.

- Development

In the Development Team all work regarding the development of WebsiteBaker, split into core and core add-ons, as well as template- and add-on testing to ensure the quality of the official released materials. Also programming work for the different WebsiteBaker Sites should be covered there.

- Infrastructure

I bet you guessed it already, the Servers, Webspace and everything will be managed within the Infrastructure Team. They will do all the administration work. This team will also propose changes to the server and software infrastructure.

Now a couple of the tasks at hand here will require cross team work, which is something that will be ensured by the leaders. The leaders will also jointly decide on the direction (short and long term) and major changes. They will delegate some of the work required for fact finding to team members. The final decision on everything will lie in the hands of the leaders team ant not anybody else!

Now obviously you ask yourself how the community comes into action here ... i would expect the community to make suggestions to either the team members or the leaders team, whom will then have to act on this. As you can imagine suggestions like "I want this one to be chucked out" will be dismissed entirely.

Suggestion we do expect are:

• External Scritps to be included
• Marketing Operations
• User Meetings
• New functions to be created
• Team member proposals

Also finished code (bugfixes, new functons, etc.) should be suggested for inclusion.

Please, let us all work on this instead of this bitching around ...

cheers

Klaus

PS: please excuse my abuse of code and qoute for highlighting ...

[johnp]

@Vincent

I would like to know how you think my voice in this thread is insulting, offensive or unpleasant?

It was not choice to start this thread, it was Ryan's! After I emailed Ryan when a post
Regarding our intention to fork from Sharmpro was moved and I got in touch with
Ryan to get his permission to create a thread under

WebsiteBaker Development
https://forum.WebsiteBaker.org/index.php/topic,11671.0.html
in regards to a fork edition nothing more.

And as a reply to

I think we all should acknowledge that everyone in this community wants the best for all of us, so there is no need be mistrustful as you are.

I have only tried to be as fair and as pleasant as I can. I can't see how one nor you could
come to a conclusion that I might be insulting, offensive or unpleasant and further more
what could I have said that could bring you to such a conclusion? The Truth!

I am finding your last post to this thread not throughly though out and you probably did not
completely read through everything and for my English it's just fine.


Further more I would like to add to this I have done everything I could to get Ryan and I
to come to some kind of middle ground and it is hard to do when one fines getting in
touch with him is almost impossible

JP

[Stefek]

Hello LuckyLuke.

That's cool what you say.
Has nothing to do with "how long in the community".

Look at LSW, he was for a long time in the community and left nothing but trouble & crap.

So intentions are more important.

@Vincent
Thank fo your comment

@Sharmpro - come on. That's not the way to handle conversations. I know it's a hard time for some people,  but keep your maners.

@Ryan
Thank you for answering the most of my questions.
It was good if you change the name. For both - WebsiteBaker and your new Product.

I have some questions left, but I am very busy with my own business tonight.

Best Regards,
Stefek

[Macros]

Long time i say nothing ....

but i thing, this is the wrong way.

@Ryan: I thing, it's too late to do this how you want to do this. I like OpenSource, but i know how it should be... And here the community is splitet.

@kweitzel, rueberwurzel and so on: Alex is not so bad, all will think, he has his own head, his direction and sometime he will shoot too fast, but i think, WB will not stand here, without him. And in every good team i know, 1 people have to be a bad guy to get fast forward.

@LSW: think about come back, i know, you will make money, and you know me, for me this or the fork is a system to play.

@all: i know about more than 30 people who have gone and only leech WB and they have much nice features...

rgds.
J

[Luckyluke]

I'm getting a little worried about this discussion. I experienced both Sharmpro and Johnp as very helpful and alert forum members over the past months.
But in this thread you seem like different persons!
Your tone of voice is quite unpleasant I must say. Both of you seem very exited all the time, and frankly speaking I find you insulting. Although both of you obviously are no native English speakers (nor am I), you normally communicate clearly. But in this thread anger makes both of your writings not only offensive, but often it is almost impossible to understand what you are exactly trying to say.
.........
Vincent

I concur what Vincent said here.
I'm concerned of the way of the conversation here.
Everybody here is doing a hard job. So, stop blaming each other.
I think we are going the wrong direction in discussions.
We all have to move forward.

Nobody has to be angry here. WB 2 is a very good product and if there are people in the community who wants to make WB 2 even better, that's a good thing.
And I'm sure WB 3 will be much better because it's a new design, technology etc. But I will tell more after the first release.

I shouldn't post here a lot because I'm new in this community.

I hope you don't misunderstand me, I don't want to point a finger at anybody. I love you all

Grtz,
Luc

[Vincent]

I'm getting a little worried about this discussion. I experienced both Sharmpro and Johnp as very helpful and alert forum members over the past months.

But in this thread you seem like different persons!
Your tone of voice is quite unpleasant I must say. Both of you seem very exited all the time, and frankly speaking I find you insulting. Although both of you obviously are no native English speakers (nor am I), you normally communicate clearly. But in this thread anger makes both of your writings not only offensive, but often it is almost impossible to understand what you are exactly trying to say.

I think we all should acknowledge that everyone in this community wants the best for all of us, so there is no need be mistrustful as you are.
Personally I'd leave the community if I suspected the team leaders of personal benefits in stead of trying to do what's best for all of us. Mind you, I hope both of you stay committed, but I surely hope you find a more elegant way of expressing your frustrations.

Vincent

[sharmpro]

Seppel,

Please understand that I've been running my own business since the start of the year. I manage the staff and I am enjoying working in a managerial position. While I am not talking to staff or working on strategical decisions, I am either doing sales calls or coding.

I don't want to be talking myself up to much here, but I have been coding in PHP for 7 years now, and I've learnt a lot about things such as design, modelling, OO coding, testing, etc. in the last few years. I've got a lot of experience with systems in many different languages and environments, I have used PHP for projects ranging from POS to e-commerce. If you would, please take a look at the WB3 alpha release very closely before commenting on how professional it is.
...
...
Also, because WB3 will be commercially supported by my own company, it will definitely maintain a high level of professionalism in everything from code to marketing.

Ryan

I Ryan,
i can assure nobody is trying to rate you and your job. What you want to develop, the for that makes YOU more confortable, your OO experience, the systems you know... WHO CARES!?.
Dont tell me there's nobody like you......

Grow up.

Stefano

[Ryan]

Seppel,

Please understand that I've been running my own business since the start of the year. I manage the staff and I am enjoying working in a managerial position. While I am not talking to staff or working on strategical decisions, I am either doing sales calls or coding.

I don't want to be talking myself up to much here, but I have been coding in PHP for 7 years now, and I've learnt a lot about things such as design, modelling, OO coding, testing, etc. in the last few years. I've got a lot of experience with systems in many different languages and environments, I have used PHP for projects ranging from POS to e-commerce. If you would, please take a look at the WB3 alpha release very closely before commenting on how professional it is.

Now, with regards to managing a team of developers for future WB3 development - I assure you I can handle it. The main reason why I wanted to develop 3.0 myself was that I wanted the framework to be done in a specific way that I felt was just easier to do myself. Now that the ground work has been put in, i'm not far away from bringing other people on board to accelerate the speed of development

Also, because WB3 will be commercially supported by my own company, it will definitely maintain a high level of professionalism in everything from code to marketing.

Ryan

[Seppel]

Hello,

However, to see WB3 have EXACTLY what I want in the first release, I must do it myself as it is quicker to do this than to try and coordinate several people to do it.

I think this is the wrong intention. As a manager you have to let other people do the coding, you have to trust their skills. Of course, you should have convinced yourself of their abilitites. It may be that the first release of WB3 can be published quicker than with coordinating other people's tasks, but the question is: is the quality of the product also better?

Besides as a manager you should have very good conversation skills, but like you say, you are not willed to coordinate several people to do the first release of WB3. How do you want to make it in the future? Maybe you are not willed to coordinate for the second, third etc. release?

I do not want to blame you, but like other people said in this thread, you should perhaps think about the point, if you really want to manage and if you really think you can handle it. Being a coder in a project is no shame, no, it is an important part in the development of a software system.

Now I want to come to an important point: Coding is not the most important part in developing a software system. I do not know how WB was developed, but were modeling languages used? Have the models been checked, whether they are correct? Was it considered which people may use WB? Which impacts this should have on the functional and the qualitative aspects of WB? Was it considered which script/programming languages would fit the needs best or were they chosen, because they were the only known by the coder/coders? Was it considered how to make the product known by the people?

This are some exemplary questions, but questions which are fundamental for professional software development. Many of you guys have the intention to make WB a long-living project, but I think with the lack of real professional development effort, this includes the need for people which have skills in the important parts of software engineering, this will fail. I believe that one major problem in involving people which have the skills is, there is no money to pay them. To make a professional open source project needs the same eager and time than to make a commercial product, considered you want to be able to compete with the professional software. Therefore the people involved have to work hard and (even) full-time and they have to eat and drink. How should they do it without money?

Thus, to make it happen, there must be more effort, more professionality to earn money in other ways, if you want WB to be open source. This, I think, is also a problem of this project.

Let me say again: I do not want to blame the people involved in this project, no, I really like this project. I only want to show that more professionality is important. Open source projects, which want to survive in the business, have to be put forward with the same professionality like other commercial projects.

Best regards,
Seppel

[Ryan]

Firstly...

I would just like to reply that I have sent you replies and if needed I can resend. please have another look in your in box as I just sent you a email 17 hours ago and I am waiting on a reply from that.

@JP: I haven't received a single email from you since the 5th Nov. Maybe try sending through my web form (http://ryandjurovich.com/contact)?

I have been sending you emails via webmail and through your official contact form http://ryandjurovich.com/contact/ to reach you since before 21 of October.
I have sent you 2 emails in the past 24 hours along with a cc in the emails to Doc and Stefano and myself.
I have just sent you another request through http://ryandjurovich.com/contact/ again just in the past 5 minutes.
So stop making a mockery of me within this forum for your personal gain, as we both know you are getting the emails, as I am monitoring there delivery status

John, I would like to publicly apologise for not replying to your emails.
Also, to anyone who sent me emails in the last few days... I have only just resolved a problem with my WB email account so I have replied to them all just now.

-----

Now, I would like to reply to the other posts the came after my last reply:

-----

Reply#34@Stefek:

- I dont think the leadership is bad, I just think it needs to be much much better
- We do need more firm targets set for development.
- I do realise our community is generally happy with the WB 2.x product.
- Our forum support is good.
- I haven't been very involved with the marketing team, but I am happy that they are brainstorming and working on some good ideas.

----

Reply#35@centran:

"I think the faster WB3 gets to a point where people can contribute to it that the forking discussion will subside"

- I don't really agree with this. WB3 is a separate issue to WB2, and I don't really see how not being able to contribute to WB3 would encourage a fork of WB2.

"It would be a shame to fork WB2 becuase the more people helping WB3 the better it will be."

- Again, WB2 is separate so I don't see why if people were working on a WB2 why they couldn't work on WB3.

"Right now I think the best course of action is to get WB3 to a point where you feel comfortable launching a SVN for it. Once that is set up then I think some leadership re-ordering is in order."

- This will only happen with time, and probably won't happen until after the 3.0 stable release.

"It is obvious that the people leading WB are all coders. What you need is a project manager who would do limited coding. You need a project manager that knows the main code developers strengths and weakness and how long it takes them to code. That way tasks can be assigned appropriately."

- Why can I not be both a coder and manager? :S I dont have time to code or manage 2.x, but with 3.x I will both code and manage.

"However, I am not saying you need someone bossing you around. Just assigning tasks. "

- For the 2.x development, I do believe we need someone assigning tasks.

"It seems the main issue is just with organization."

- I have pointed this out from the started. Leadership and organisation is the main problem here.

"Ryan, I know this is your baby and I am not trying to say someone should replace you or boss you around."

- I do want someone to reply my position for WB2, and we have several good candidates to do so. However, with WB3 I do not see someone replacing my position for a long, long time.

"You obviously want WB3 to go in a certain direction but it seems you rather lock yourself up in a room and just start coding away."

- I am only "locking myself up in a room" to get 3.0 out the door, once this is done, I will take a more distanced stance on coding, and work more on management.

Centran I think you have it back to front. I would prefer manage rather than code, not the other way around. However, to see WB3 have EXACTLY what I want in the first release, I must do it myself as it is quicker to do this than to try and coordinate several people to do it.

----

Reply#36@shampro:

"1. Ryan is going his way with WB3 (open source) but under his full controll (like it was for WB2) and the "commercial+features" one. These,and his new open approach to 'commercialize' some feature/service do not sounds good toward a new way to manage the WB3. IT SOUNDS EVEN WORSE THAN THE WB2 WAS!.

I think once you see the full picture, you will understand why this will make things a lot better. It is only because you cannot possible see the big picture (as I haven't and can't really explain it at this time), that you would think it is even worse.

"2. WB2 is left to the community, apparently" - Yes

3. I am going to make sure we have the right people in place to be the "decision makers". This is my main point to this whole post - assigning new leadership within the community.

4. "The 'former' leader now is trying to appoint some 'volatile' titles to the herarchy he didn't let take place on WB2 for years"

- I have tried several times in the past to get more leadership in place. However no one has ever been willing to make the commitment required. If we had this many motivated community members in the past willing to step up, we would have had these conversations a long time ago.

"5. He still state: "I would like to maintain access to all sites as well, however you would be "running the show" on the day-to-day basis...." WHAT !!!???. SO FOR DAILY ISSUES NO PROBLEM, BUT WHAT ABOUT STRATEGIC ONES ??!!"

- No, I think you have misunderstand my intentions for this. I simply want access to ensure that if I had over control to someone and they do the wrong thing, I can revoke their powers and make sure that the community continues for the better. It will be impossible for me to know the real intentions of anyone I appoint. It is in my interest to still have access, because I would hate to see my "baby" taken down by malicious activity. I am not saying anyone is intending on harming the project, all I am saying is that for the protection of the community, I would like to still have access. I am 100% absolutely not going to try and kill the project myself for strategical reasons.

"6. Fork or not fork is not the issue: A RADICAL CHANGE IS !!! The 'programming/coding' can be an easy task but managing...."

- While it is not the only issue, it is one of the main factors at this point. Please don't disregard it as a non-issue.

----

Reply#37@kweitzel:

Klaus I like your concept of having three leaders. If we could make this work it would be great (as long as all three are continually active).
The only problem is if one person stopped being active, the two would have to either be held back by the 3rd, or make decisions without them (which defeats the purpose).
In terms of putting names to people, maybe I should start opening nominations so that people can nominate themselves for positions?
That way we get to see exactly who would like to be exactly what..

----

Reply#39@Stefek:

"And yes it is also a problem of a lag of certainty about Ryans personal goals."

- I hope I have already addressed these in this post. If not, please feel free to question me further on what my goals are.

"You should also give the rest of your "power" over to the community. Otherwise we really have a reason to think, that you are playing a game with all of us."

- I have stated many times already, I would like someone(s) to step into the position of "power", which would effectively hand the power over to the community. I am not trying to play games. If you feel this way please tell me how I can change that.

"you then should provide a "whishlist" how to run the show, the purpose of all of this and so fort."

- I have already detailed what I'd like to see happen with 2.8.x, besides that, I don't mind where things go in terms of marketing/community structure for WB2.

"There is a chance for WebsiteBaker 2 and 3 going Hand in Hand as a whole Project."

- Absolutely. 2.x and 3.x will mutually benefit each other in terms of marketing, as it is a common name.

With regards to democracy/monarchy. For 2.x, I am happy for the yet-to-be elected leaders to make the decisions. For 3.x, I will make the decisions. In both situations however, it is very important to poll the community on what the community wants, and then take this into consideration when making final decisions.

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In reply to both #39@Stefek and #40@Johnp
You have said that I need to step up and take responsibility. I thought when I said "I accept for responsibility for the poor leadership over the last few years." that I made it clear I was accepting responsibility for the current situation. Obviously I haven't conveyed my message clearly enough. What I am trying to do with this post is finally take some sort of action with improving leadership and development for the benefit of the community as a whole.

Comments like "Step up to the plate and be a man Ryan" I find to be unnecessary and derogatory, considering my age and all.

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Reply#42@kweitzel:

This user contacted me directly complaining that he was banned and copied me in on his post (above). Based on what I have read from this post, I can see why. His attitude is definitely not in the right spirit of Open Source.

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Reply#43@Stefek:

I agree it appears Alex is living a different philosophy than the majority of us.

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Reply#44@centran:

"Ryan, you need to sit down and think long and hard about where you want WB to go. For WB to survive and this awesome community to stay intact then you will need to loosen your grip a little bit."

- One option I have considered is branding WB3 as a different name. It is not the same product, and the way in which I intend to run the community is different. By doing this it would allow those passionate about WB2 to continue developing it and running the community around it like it has been run. The WB2 could have major changes to the core and a version 3.x could come as a result of it. It's just an idea so please nobody overreact to this suggestion! I would be interested to hear everyones thoughts on me branding WB3 as a different project altogether, and thus allowing WB to continue along the path it naturally would follow.

"To those that want to fork WB2 why not wait a couple months for WB3 to be released and then fork from WB3? It seems stupid to me to continue on with WB2 as the various difficulties maintaining the code are being addressed in WB3(or at least that is what I am to believe)"

- WB2 still has life in it. In case you have missed what I already said, it will be some time before WB3 will catch up to 2.x in terms of features (maybe mid next year?). Therefore, I believe that it is worth continuing to develop a 2.8.x version.

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If anyone feels that I have left anything out or has any further questions please feel free to ask them.

I think that it has come to a point where we should have nominations for positions in a new team structure. Once those positions have be applied for, we can then make a decision on who will best fill it. I am very keen to see what JohnP can do, as he has been very open and honest about what he would like to do for the community.

Also, I hope that we can get a resolve on the current situation in a timely manner