Discussion about English only forum

[Argos]

Topic closed by argos. This is leading nowhere.

[Stefek]

@Justy,

actually no. I am operating from present time.

@Uwe

ahahaaaha. This was a joke. Now I understand your humor.
BTW. I am really relaxed. Please don't get mad at people because they're relaxed.

@Moderators
Please anyone could you close this thread. It's becoming rather pointless. Uwe won't appreciate my well meant suggestions anyway and it's going into off topic for way too long now.

[justy]

@Stefek & jacobi22

First --> I don't want to stand between lines and I'm also not Mr. Right. We all make faults.

It seems that there are some things from the past are unspoken between you. Now you did it both here.

And now only one bid frome me to all, please...and don't hit me (now) for these lines. Thanks.

Delete things from the past out of your brain an make a thick line under all from the past, to have a look in a fine upcoming (WB-)future. There are really, a many good ideas here in the WB-forum.

This is the thick line --->

█████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████

[Stefek]

This is just another construction of yours.

You think I want to present me as an angel.

Fine.

And no, regarding the bakery, no worries. If you don't know, I always was in good communication with Christoph (hell, I even made his bakery-site template back in 2009 or so). And it was never my intention to "rob" something or some such imagination of yours.

But of course you can live your imaginary life, full of people who are out to get you. I doubt it's true, but then again, it's your choice. It's your life after all. And your imagination.

Just stop picking fights with other forum users. It's really bad for the atmosphere here.

[Gast]

I remember when I once asked you if you would like to work with me on a fork for bakery. Instead of looking for the positives in  my intention, you just accused me of "robbery" and some such things.

Siehste, du drehst dir die Sachen hin wie du sie brauchst, um als braver Engel dazustehen. Hab es nicht anders erwartet und ja auch vorhergesagt  

Ich habe dir damals geantwortet, das ich es nicht fair finde, jemanden, der noch aktiv ein Modul pflegt!!! seine Arbeit zu nehmen. Mal ganz davon ab, das wir zwei zusammenpassen wie Feuer und Wasser, über jedes andere Modul, das ungepflegt auf AMASP vergammelt, hätten wir (damals) gern reden können.
Was wäre denn die Konsequens aus deinem Bakery-Projekt gewesen? Christoph hätte seine Arbeit wahrscheinlich sofort eingestellt. Für dich mag das Normalität sein, für mich ein No-Go.

If I were an moderator here, I would give you some days off.

kennste dich aus, ne?  
aber keine Bange, dem Wunsch wird entsprochen

Translatet with Google
You see, it's you turn things down as you need in order to be as brave angel. Did not have expected otherwise and indeed predicted:-D

I told you then answered regarding Bakery, I do not think it's fair to someone, the more active a module maintains !!! to take his work. Time is entirely dependent on the two of us together like fire and water, over any other module, the scruffy unkempt on AMASP we had (at that time) are welcome to talk.
What the consequent from your Bakery project would been? Christoph had his work probably set immediately. For you, the normality may be, for me is a no-go.

If I were to moderator here, I would give you some days off.

Do you have expirience, right?
But do not worry, the request will be

[Stefek]

I can't really follow the whole discussion.

For what I see, there is too much "think about" and too little real communication.

Who set a knife on your throat?
Just relax.

Or who said you would smoke weed (kiffen)?

Please, take a joke from time to time.

And if someone in your opinion is not right, there is no need to misinterpret his words.

But you say: "Yeah, thats, what i mean - germans are not longer welcome here kick all the german speakers and close the german forum areas."

That's not ok.

I remember when I once asked you if you would like to work with me on a fork for bakery. Instead of looking for the positives in  my intention, you just accused me of "robbery" and some such things. We operate here a Open Source Project (or at least we did before it went all into the hands of one person).
Everyone who produces code and releases under the GNU/GPL does it in full agreement with the license, knowing that others can come and improve upon the existing code (or at least change  ).

So just stop being suspicious all the time. Nobody is out to kill you with any imaginary knife or some such thing.
There are differences in opinion, that's all.

If I were an moderator here, I would give you some days off.

Take a walk.
Life is to be lived and enjoyed.

Helping others in any form makes life worthwhile. I get that.
That's why some people here are concerned about the future of this project.

Have a nice weekend.

[Gast]

You are part of this community and so are they.

Ich denke, das Thema ist erledigt. Niemand wird sich bei mir entschuldigen, also werde ich das auch nicht tun.
Ihr habt gestern aus einer ganz normalen Frage mit einem ganz einfachen Hintergrund (reicht eine Sprache im Forum oder haben die User dann Angst, nicht mehr verstanden zu werden) ein Fass auf gemacht als hätte ich die Welt zum Einsturz gebracht. Diese Frage wird seid dem Bestehen des Vereins diskutiert und wird auch in jedem anderen deutsch-sprachig entwickeltem CMS gestellt. Ich sehe an dieser Frage eigentlich keinen Grund, jemanden ans Kreuz zu nageln, mit Ausschluß zu drohen, vorzuwerfen, ich würde kiffen usw
Natürlich ist das alles nicht wahr und ich hab mir das alles nur ausgedacht, egal....
Mittlerweile wurden auch schon jede Menge Beiträge dazu gelöscht, andere verändert.
Sicher ist meine Reaktion auf diese Art und Weise jetzt auch nicht mehr fein, aber so ist das eben wenn man jemanden das Messer an die Kehle hält. Jeder hat irgendwo seine Grenzen, ein Argos und ein Uwe auch

Und zu deinem Zitat und den Worten darunter
Die Aussage des Moderators war sinngemäß: Nach seiner Ansicht ist die Kommunikation über die Entwicklung in rein deutsch-sprachigen Bereich Schuld am Untergang von WB
Auf Nachfrage erhielt ich die Antwort: es störten insbesondere die Threads mit den Fixes, die im Zusammenhang mit dem SP3 und der Umstellung auf mysqli im deutschen Module-Thread gepostet wurden.
Was wäre denn die Konsequenz aus solcher Behauptung? Eigentlich ganz einfach zu beantworten: Um solch Problem erneut zu vermeiden, versuchen wir es mal in einem rein englischem Forum, weil eben der deutsch-sprachige Bereich nach seiner Wortwahl die Ursache allen Übels ist
Weißt du: wenn diese 10-12 Leute die sich in beiden "bösen" Threads an der Diskussion beteiligt haben, an einem Tisch gesessen hätten, wäre diese Formulierung von Argos in zwei Minuten geklärt. Er hat es so nicht gemeint, wie ich es übersetzt habe und wenn er es mir erklärt hätte, hätte ich so nicht geantwortet!  Und über die Frage, ob ein rein englisch-sprachiges Forum solche Konflikte in Zukunft vermeiden könnte, hätt man vielleicht nochmal 10 min gesprochen. Eine ganz einfache Frage, die jeder spontan mit Ja oder Nein beantworten kann. Ich sagte es gestern schon mal, Leute meiner Generation hätten vielleicht ein Problem damit, vielleicht auch Ängste, niemanden mehr zu finden, der hilft. Wenn das so ist, stimmt man halt mit Nein. Hat man am Ende 1000 Votings, kann man einen Trend ableiten. Ob man das Ergebnis dann nutzt, steht auf einem anderem Blatt. Mir persönlich wäre es egal gewesen, Sprache war nie ein Problem für mich, irgendwo zu helfen.

Ich wehre mich nur dagegen, das wir deutsch-sprachigen nun als Ursache für den WB-Untergang ausgemacht wurden. Ich hab gestern zahlreiche private Gespräche darüber gehabt und kann nun auch nachvollziehen, das sich die Jungs im engl. Bereich etwas ausgegrenzt fühlten. Das in Zukunft zu vermeiden war die Intension für den Start der Umfrage.
Du hast gerade eben einen Beitrag im Bootstrap-Thread als Antwort an Yetiie geschrieben, da bin ich mal 100% conform, aber den Leuten, die nach dem SP3-Problem schnellsten für Lösungen ihre Zeit geopfert haben, nun dafür die Schuld zu geben, halte ich für den falschen Weg. Genau so vertreibt man die Leute nämlich.
Ich glaube, Tez (oder war es Nibz) hatte geschrieben, es gibt keinen "deutschen" Code - Recht hat er! Ich war mir nie zu schade, einen Translator zu benutzen oder meine Kids zu fragen: was meint der hier, um jemanden in einer anderen Sprache zu helfen. Darum hätte ich es auch nie als Problem gesehen, das der Code für einen Fix nur im deutsch-sprachigem Bereich gepostet wurde.

TRANSLATET with Google Translator (es wird sicher nicht dem entsprechen, was ich in deutsch formuliert habe und eher noch höhere Wellen schlagen)


I think the issue is settled. No one will apologize to me, so I will not do that too.
You have yesterday from a normal question with a very simple background (is one language enough in the forum or the user then fear will not have understood) brought a barrel on as if I had made the world to collapse. This question will be discussed since the start of the "Verein WebsiteBaker" and shall also be made in nearly every other CMS German languages ​​developed. I think, this simple question is no reason to nail someone to the cross, to threaten exclusion, blame, I'd smoke pot, etc
Of course, all this is not true now and I thought it would all up, no matter ....
Meanwhile, a lot of posts were deleted or changed in the last 30 ours.
Sure my reaction to this way is now no longer fine, but that's just when you hold someone the knife to her throat. Each has its limits somewhere, an "Argos" and "Uwe" also

And below to your quote and the words
The statement of the moderator was this:

Many developing discussions take place only in the German forums, and in my opinion that is one of the reasons of the decreasing popuarity and development of WB...

Upon request, I received the answer: it interfered with in particular the threads with the fixes that have been posted in connection with the SP3 and converting to mysqli modules in the German thread - see here.
What the consequence would be because of such assertion? You try to remove the cause of the problem, ergo: no more German.
It's quite easy to answer: In order to avoid such problem again, we try it in a purely English forum, just because the German-speaking area is the root of all evil according to his choice of words (my interpretation of the quote in the top)
You know: if this 10-12 people have participated in two "bad" thread in the discussion had been sitting together at one table, this formulation of Argos would be released in two minutes, and the question whether a purely English-language forum such could avoid conflicts in the future, you'd maybe another 10 min spoken. A very simple question that anyone can answer spontaneously with yes or no. I said it before yesterday, my generation might have a problem with that, maybe fears, to find no one to help. If so, it is true just in the negative. If you have at the end of 1000 voting, one can derive a trend. Whether one uses the result then, is on another sheet. Personally, I would not have mattered, language was never a problem for me to help somewhere.

I'm just on the other hand, we were German-speaking now identified as the cause of the WB downfall defend myself. Yesterday I had many private conversations about and understands now that the boys in the English-Speakers Area, they felt somewhat marginalized. To avoid that in the future was the intension for the start of the survey.
You just wrote up a post in the bootstrap thread in response to Yetiie, I'm 100% conform times, thats the real problem, but the people who fastest after SP3 problem for solutions have given their time, now for blaming, hold I voted for the wrong path. Just sells to people that is.
I think Tez (or was it Nibz?) had written, there is no "German" code - he's right! I was never too good to use a Translator or to ask my kids: what do you think of this to help someone in another language. That's why I never would have seen it as a problem that was posted the code for a fix, only in German-speakers area.
[/i]

[Stefek]

@Uwe,

rereading your anwer to Tez Oner, I see that you are really overreacting and misinterpreting the situation.

And if you want to make it 'international' start with 1 forum in English, it's 2015 right

Yeah, thats, what i mean - germans are not longer welcome here
kick all the german speakers and close the german forum areas - and maybe the last 3 english speakers save the (WB-)world

good luck

At no point has Tez Oner made any indication Germans are not welcome and that somebody should be kicked out.

Your reaction to his and other people statements, as I have observed, create even more turbulations and this creates an atmosphere of displeasure. It's better to stick to the facts instead of putting interpretations into statements that are pure creations and just not true.

Give yourself some rest.

I know that you are a good guy at heart and like most of us you also want to make a contribution to WebsiteBaker.

Don't you understand that they also want WebsiteBaker go in the right direction, better, improved, more contemporary?

You are part of this community and so are they.

Stefek

[cwsoft]

@Nibz: Just searched GitHub for repositories containing WebsiteBaker.
Found an anonymous clone of my WebsiteBaker GitHub Repo from user account ivankaa with all the branches and tags: https://github.com/ivankaa/WebsiteBaker

So you can just clone this repo and replace yours. If it does not work out for some reason, just send me a PM and I will share my local copy with you. Had to run some bash scripts to fetch and convert all SVN branches, trunks and tags into Git branches and annotaded tags, as tags etc. are handled differently in Git. Having the full history however is really nice.

Cheers

[nibz]

@cwsoft would you be so kind to exchange the version that i have with your version?
Because i lost the tags (i think), because they are not there, and it would be easier to have them because the overview between the versions will be nicer.

I also made an extra Github for the modules: https://github.com/WebsiteBaker-modules
All the current modules on the addons repo are there (the versions are the same as the repo).

If someone would like access to something just ask.
If you like to contribute just create a pull request.
Any questions are welcome.

[cwsoft]

@Nibz: Excellent, checked out your Repo two hours ago, when it was practically empy
My GitHub repo included the entire project history since WB 2.6.0, incl. the tags for those versions, but I guess it's fine to start from 2.8 branch only.

There is no need to add me to the organisation list, as I stopped my active development for WB in February this year. Keep up the good work.

Cheers

[Tez Oner]

The Chinese don't release, they only take
But that's another discussion!

+1 for Argos.

And have some look at other 'open source' projects, have a prober public bug tracker,
add a features / have / want to list (like yahoo), let someone moderate this etc etc.
en make milestones and public beta's.

This discussion is coming back every year from what I remember, WB should take this
'wave' and use the contribution a lot of developers would love to invest in making WB
better and (even more) user friendly, also for power-users.

And this whole childish issue about language doesn't help anything, but anybody who
can think should know an international language (like english) would uplift WB to a bigger
community and therefore a better (and more well known) CMS. (So e.q. clients actually know
what WB is, besides only WP, Joomla or Drupal


Cheerz,

Tez Oner

[nibz]

@cwsoft  i will not have to transfer the repo to the foundation because i made a github organisation. If someone from the foundation asks permission i will add them to the repo (they need to have a github profile themselve).
I pulled the SVN to Github (just like you did), check the github page for the current progress.
I made 3 braches:
1: master : this is the development branch
2: 2.8.3SP3 : the latest complete version of WebsiteBaker with SP3 (without fixes)
3: 2.8.3 : version 2.8.3

I will add you to the repo so you can push changes where you'll think they are needed.

Kind regards,

Robin (nibz)

[cwsoft]

@Nibz: Would you transfer the GitHub WebsiteBaker repository to the WebsiteBaker foundation, or just offer access to it? Just in case needed, I still have a local GitHub clone of the WebsiteBaker SVN on my local hard disc. I would appreciate this step, but somehow doubt the DEVs will go this step in the near future.

Cheers

[nibz]

When the dev-team is interested, i have claimed the WebsiteBaker github: https://github.com/WebsiteBaker
So if we like we can make a team and work together.
I can also make a modules section where i can put all the modules, so people can contribute.
I personally can check modules if they work (i don't have enough understanding of php to check if they are coded right).
And i can also make a themes part.

I don't know if the WB team agrees with this but i wanted to offer the github repo.

Kind regards,
Robin (nibz).

[Stefek]

We should see, that most people are no native English speakers, but speak English because it's the world language (and quite easy to learn / understand).

That is correct.
And the same should go for the germans - and many of them read/write english.

I also had to learn english to participate in the english discussions here (no kidding - the old-timers here remember my broken english?)

Everyone benefits from participating more in the english discussions.

Just go for it.

Having said that, of course a german forum is needed and wanted.
It's only not OK to turn an international project into a german project. That's what I decipher from the people who seem to criticize the situation - and I agree.

[easyuser]

We should see, that most people are no native English speakers, but speak English because it's the world language (and quite easy to learn / understand).

[Boudi]

Nice reading  

I offered my help already to one of the boardmembers. Yes I have plans but, and you're right, those plans are modern and/but highly needed in order to keep WB alive.

First things first and that is to create/extend the board with new users/developers who believe in WB and are willing to actively participate in that.

So I think the BEST idea is to motivate users/developers in order to extend the current WB team en spit their ideas and most important: put these ideas into practise.

So, ... count me in!  

PS; let's give credits for Luisehahe and Darkviper for rebuilding WB as we speak. So important what they're doing right now.

[Yetiie]

Hard discussion.

First of all I have to agree with jacobi22 when he indicated, that all (technical) development information are posted in english first (even it is not a very small modul from a developer who may not speek german). The main developers works in german too. IMHO WB is based on an international background.

But indeed: A lot of the main developers and supporters are germans (important is to note: not all, the team up to now is an international team and works on international level!!!). And a very huge number of users are indeed germans too (however this trend developed). As (mostly engaged users, not developers) posts their ideas in their native language a lot of discussion about ideas and strategy to wb is in german ...




WB differences based on language

This trend made some difference.

First of all in the german forum are a lot of very hard discussions. Based on their information there are many users who are not happy with the development of wb. This grows over the last years and comes up to a very hard struggle about the situation of wb at the moment. Cause german developers AND(!) users (sorry to say this) are mostly old-school-developers (germans like me indeed are very traditional people) ideas for modern designs, presentations, webdevelopment, actual technologies ... are blocked (Let's say: table layouts are proofed standard which works in a solid way ... not reason to discuss about modern frameworks or using modern sources .... or even to change it in wb ).

IMHO: Contrary to this the way of thinking about webdesign in the english forum is more on an international (modern, actual ... and HIGHER) level. And some users in the english forum tends to a similar thinking of the situation of wb. (Indeed the cirtical useres in the englisch forum becomes more and more too.) But the way of discussion up to now is friendly here. Unhappiness and feedback is expressed in a calm way. And even when a developer or supporter leave he goes in a very friendly without making (very) clear (enough) that he is not longer pleased with the way wb develops ...  Let's say: no reason for a typical(!) german not-only-wb-developer to change his way ...

So the traditional german way wins and decrease of wb goes on ... and on ... and on.




Chances: What could be done?

IMHO it would be a great chance for wb if the international users with the international way to develop webpages would become a larger weight to the decision process.


(1) First chance: international discussion

In the german forum was announced that there will be an online meeting of developers, supporters (and as I understood it) supporting users about the future of wb and working on it (this is not the official election meeting I mentioned yesterday). NOTE: This information was spread by chance in the german forum (and is not an official information up to now which of course will come I believe!!!)

I suggest to make an official international announcment in the different wb language forums. The language of the meeting should be in english (I believe that is the plan) too.

Take part in the meeting ... announce your ideas for wb ... and maybe this will raise an more international impulse for wb



(2) Build a little stone for WB

To be honest: only speeking about ideas for WB is is important and helps to get modern impulses ... but only if you support wb you are able to change it in an active way. (Yes, I know, a lot of the readers hre are engaged yet but maybe you can do  little(!) bit more?)

So: Maybe you would like not only to discuss but to support wb as official supporter, developer. Help for the plattform is NEEDED and WELCOME !!! PLEASE ASK FOR IT. FIRST ASKING FOR POSSIBILITIES AND SUGESTIONS FOR IDEAS DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU HAVE TO IT!!! YOU CAN THINK ABOUT IT AFTER YOUR FIRST CONTACT!!!

And: if you would like to do it not fix integrated in a team: maybe you would like to realize a special project (modul, template, framework, i.e.) for wb ... not on your own but on an official base which could be presented on the wb webpage as an official source (not only in an not official way here in the forum). PLEASE ASK FOR THIS TOO!!!

And there are a lot off not official sources in the forum: i.e.: Maybe there is an international bootstrap user who would like to manage a wb bootstrap source pool ... a.s.o.

And a wish to the development team: please give us a working and modern, attractive, not old-fashioned plattform to conclude our activities for wb !!! (Maybe there is somene here who whants to help in this?)



The opportunity: As more international supporters become part of the off the system as more international webstandards can be integrated to wb.

I am sure: International impulses would help to bring wb back!

[Boudi]

Hallo Uwe,

Das einzige was ich den ganzen zeit sage ist das viel wichtige diskussionen, patches und aufösungen gerade nur im Deutsch anwesen sind und damit es ein problem gibt für alle nicht Deutschen besucher. Und das ist sönde.

Ich muss aber sagen dat du das verstehst. Dus hast mehrmals mehrere topics Im Deutsch und im English hergestellt wofür dank. Mein Deutsch ist nicht al zu gut aber ich auch probiere im Zweitsprache zu unterhalten wenn möglich

[ And the same goes for you. Sorry guys, please stick to the agreements here. / edited by argos ]

[Gast]

thx for splitting the discussion!

Jacobi created some crazy spinoff that Germans are not welcome anymore

And Argos created some crazy spinoff that

Many developing discussions take place only in the German forums, and in my opinion that is one of the reasons of the decreasing popuarity and development of WB...

and Boudi say's

Let's hope that the (only) German speaking/writing users are starting to realize when this exodus keeps continuing there's no WB left soon.

Ja, is okay, der böse Deutsche wieder......
Welche Art Entwickler-Diskussionen hast du denn öffentlich in den letzten Jahren geführt? Welche wurde denn überhaupt geführt? In meiner Vorstellung und nach den Informationen, die hier auf der Homepage zu finden waren, gab es mal Entwickler-Teams und in diesen Teams wurde festgelegt, in welche Richtung es gehen soll. Von diesen Entwickler-Teams ist wohl aktuell nur noch Manu übrig geblieben, also kaum Platz für riesige Diskussionen.
Nach meinen Vorstellungen soll der Verein die Stimmung der Userschaft aufnehmen und diese, sofern sinnvoll, für die Entwicklung vorschlagen. Hier gab es sicher die eine oder andere Diskussion, z.b. ob ein eigenes Page_Icon möglich ist oder ob dieser oder jener Einstellungspunkt nicht besser bei den erweiterten statt den allgemeinen Optionen aufgehoben ist. Und solche Threads findest du sowohl im englischen wie auch im deutschen Bereich.
Sicher hat z.b. Stefek in seinen Modulvorstellungsthread's (z.b. Seo-Tool) im deutschsprachigem Bereich mehr Postings gehabt als im gleichem englischen Thread und natürlich war das, auf das Modul bezogen, auch eine Entwicklungsdiskussion.
Mit Verlaub, so sehr ich das Modul auch mag, mal ehrlich, auch ohne dieses Modul wäre WB in der gleichen Misere, also gehe ich mal davon aus, das mit

developing discussions

auch Core-Entwicklung gemeint ist.
Eine Diskussion, in dem Maße das deutsche User like me festgelegt haben, wohin WB geht, hat es nicht gegeben, weder im englischen, noch im deutschen Bereich.
Es gibt ein Ziel: WB goes OOP mit größtmöglicher Abwärtskompatiblität - da gibt es (aus meiner Sicht) auch nicht viel zu diskutieren. Ich als Laie hab vielleicht mal Ideen kundgetan, zu denen irgendwer eine Meinung hatte, aber diese Möglichkeit hattet ihr im englischem Bereich auch. Nur genutzt hat sie keiner.

Zeig uns bzw mir doch einfach mal ein paar Beispiele, wo solche Diskussionen über die Core-Entwicklung stattgefunden haben.

@Boudi: von deinen letzten 20 Problemchen hast du in mindestens 15 Fällen von einem Stupid German wie mir eine helfende Antwort bekommen, u.a. auch, weil von deinen Landsmännern keiner mehr da ist. Ich denke, in der Zukunft wirst du einen Translator benötigen oder drauf verzichten müssen

[ Not to make you even more iritated than you already seem, but this is an English forum, as you are very well aware of. Please write English here, so we can all understand what the angry German has to say. / Edited by argos ]

[Argos]

The Chinese don't release, they only take 
But that's another discussion!

[Stefek]

Yes, of course.

At the other hand, if the Chinese would then release something from time to time, that would be fair enough  

[Argos]

Uwe, for what I see, Tez Oner made a suggestion. It's an opinion. Don't take it too seriously.
No one will close the bad german section of the forum. 

It started with my suggestion that the development of WB whould be done in English. Jacobi created some crazy spinoff that Germans are not welcome anymore 

But the fact is that most development dicsussions are held in the German forums, excluding all other languages. However, English is the language most people know enough to be able to communicate in. WB is an English system, founded and developed by an English speaking guy. German is a minor language in world scale and it is not internationally used in internet related discussions at all.

It's fine that German users have their own forums, but development discussions should be held in English in my opinion. That a German guy feels discriminated about that cannot be taken seriously. What about some Chinese people take over development and discuss in Chinese? That would not be regarded as very cooperative and improving WB's position, would it?

[Stefek]

Uwe, for what I see, Tez Oner made a suggestion. It's an opinion. Don't take it too seriously.
No one will close the bad german section of the forum.